The 365 pod

0:00
Welcome to the 365 Pod, a technology podcast which supports companies to successfully use and leverage their Microsoft product stack.

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We do this through news, insights, tips, and more.

0:16
I’m Sandra Kutsenko, I’m the Director of Training Services for 365 Talent Portal, which is the company who created and who is sponsoring this wonderful podcast.

0:28
And I am your host for this episode.

0:32
Today is our very, very first episode of the 365 part.

0:36
So we’re very excited and we decided that it would be fun to have this as a bit of an interview boss kind of episodes.

0:46
So with me today is Elena Baeva, who is the founder and CEO of 365 Silent Portal.

0:54
Now, Elena has a huge wealth of knowledge of the Microsoft space.

0:59
So with this episode, my intention is really to take this as an opportunity to ask her a lot of questions that I don’t get to ask her, you know, usually at work in the day-to-day and really draw out what she knows and what she can share with you that will benefit you.

1:14
A little bit of background about Elena.

1:15
She’s got over 25 years of experience in the tech sector, nine of which were spent working with Microsoft directly.

1:24
So she’s got that insider knowledge for you.

1:27
And for the past 11 years, she has been leading our company 3657 portal.

1:33
She’s also the international vice president of the International Association of Microsoft Channel Partners or IAMCP.

1:42
Thank you so much for joining me, Elena, today.

1:45
How are you doing?

1:46
Very well.

1:47
Super excited about today.

1:49
And I’m quite intrigued about this interview Your Boss podcast.

1:53
So I think we might be starting a trend, Sandra.

1:56
So I think that’d be amazing.

1:59
Yeah.

1:59
Yeah.

2:02
So let’s dive in.

2:03
Can you first tell us a bit more about what drove you to start 365 Talent Portal and what is it you stand for as a business leader?

2:12
Of course, Yeah.

2:14
So.

2:15
OK, so here’s what happened 12 years ago.

2:19
So I was working at Microsoft and I had this business idea and it was brewing inside of me and I just, I was so excited about it, I couldn’t sleep.

2:30
And I was hoping that another partner would take it on and launch the service because I was working with a lot of partners.

2:38
I even shared it with many partners and they were all saying, well, that’s really good.

2:43
Well, what a good idea.

2:44
Why isn’t nobody doing it?

2:47
Then I just sat on it for for about a year and it was just building inside of me.

2:53
I started putting together business plans and thinking, well, someone should do it.

2:56
And then one day I was driving to work.

2:59
And so, you know, this is stupid.

3:00
I should do it.

3:01
If nobody is doing it, maybe I should do it.

3:04
It’s my opportunity.

3:05
But you know what, I was a bit scared.

3:07
So I had a comfortable job and like, yeah, I had a young daughter, she was like 3 years old.

3:14
So it’s not a comfortable time to, to leave a steady job and, and dive into a world of the unknown entrepreneurship.

3:22
But but then after thinking for a while, and I was very lucky.

3:26
My husband was super supportive and that was a big part of yeah, my success.

3:31
So he encouraged me to to think about it more and to pursue it because ultimately the fear of failure was not as strong of my fear of not trying.

3:46
So for me, and that that’s actually a really stand for this.

3:49
So following you instinct and, and being brave because there’s nothing, it’s like in the days when you die, you’re probably not going to think about all like, oh, I failed in this and I failed there.

3:59
You’re going to think about the things you haven’t done and you haven’t yet you haven’t achieved.

4:03
So I really wanted to to try no matter what and I was prepared to take the risk.

4:09
And that’s very important.

4:10
And that’s, I would encourage anyone to do that.

4:14
Thank you.

4:14
That’s an awesome piece of insight.

4:16
And I think it’s something that people miss a lot.

4:19
They’re scared of doing something and they do not consider what is the consequence of not doing it.

4:24
And that maybe that is actually a much scarier thing.

4:27
So thanks for sharing that.

4:28
Very useful.

4:30
Totally.

4:30
Because people are afraid of like, oh, what if it doesn’t work out, etcetera.

4:34
But think about what if you don’t try?

4:37
So what’s worse for you?

4:38
So not trying or not working out.

4:42
Absolutely.

4:44
So now let’s talk a little bit about end users.

4:47
They are the people for whom we want this podcast to to be useful.

4:52
And there’s a lot happening right now in our space.

4:55
It’s very active.

4:56
And you know, so in this context of like all that’s happening at the moment, why would you say companies should go with Microsoft Stack Solutions as opposed to their competitors?

5:12
I mean, when you look at most businesses, so most businesses, I’d say, if not all businesses are probably using Windows, Outlook, Teams is very popular since COVID, Word, Excel, you’re probably using Azure, you might not even know it.

5:30
You’re probably using SharePoint, Power platform to some degree.

5:32
So these are all solutions provided by Microsoft.

5:35
And it makes a lot of sense to have all these technologies being connected and talking to each other because if you want to be productive and effective, you want your systems to be aligned right and to sit in the most efficient place.

5:52
So I think that’s the benefit of having everything in, in, yeah, provided by, by by the same vendor.

6:01
Now of course there is a risk putting all your eggs in one basket.

6:05
And that’s going to be the only downside I’d say is if you have one supplier that comes with the risk.

6:13
But when you think it’s like Microsoft is a pretty stable big company, so that second largest organisation in the world in terms of your shareholding and they they’ve grown tremendously.

6:25
And when you look at the amount of innovation that’s going into them right now, it’s a pretty safe bet, I’d say.

6:32
So.

6:33
Yeah, that’s very true.

6:35
And that’s one thing that I’ve found very exciting about it lately.

6:38
So we use this as a company, right?

6:40
You know this Microsoft, and particularly the whole Microsoft 365 range.

6:45
And very often I’ll go into the list of Microsoft 365 apps, just log into my account, and often there’s gonna be a new one that I didn’t know that existed.

6:54
And they just keep adding new features, new tools, new capabilities.

6:58
And now even just something as simple as Microsoft 365 has awesome.

7:04
And I saw some pieces of technology.

7:05
There’s a whole learning thing now that I’ve discovered very recently with courses you can take as an employee.

7:11
So that’s also one thing I find is really cool as a as a Microsoft user.

7:17
Very much so.

7:18
I mean, there’s so much, it’s so hard to keep on top of it, but there’s a massive investment behind and it’s like they’re they’re probably the most serious company right now that looks at the business is not just the personal productivity, but business is as an organisation.

7:32
So I would say it’s the benefits outweigh the the risks.

7:37
Definitely.

7:38
That makes a lot of sense, yes.

7:41
So when companies are implementing larger Microsoft solutions, like for example Dynamics 365, in your experience, what are the main challenges and pitfalls that lead to project failure?

7:56
That’s one of the big fears people have, right?

7:58
So what have you seen as main challenges and pitfalls?

8:02
I mean, the starting a new project is I totally understand and sympathise with with with a lot of companies that are on board on a new CRM, on new ERP system.

8:14
And it could be scary because you actually don’t know what you don’t know.

8:18
And that’s kind of one of the yeah, a lot of them take a lot of time to to decide.

8:23
And again, that leads to my first point when I was talking about jumping into the unknown and then the fear of failure, it will be there.

8:30
So if, especially if you haven’t had this experience before, you’re starting something new.

8:36
And I’ve seen a lot of like over my 25 years in this space, I’ve seen a lot of good practises and I’ve seen a lot of mistakes that people have made.

8:45
But there are a couple of examples I really want to give our audience of things they can do in the beginning of project and maybe at the end of the project because these are very important things to make successful.

8:57
So when and again, because you’re starting something new and if you don’t have the internal knowledge of that ERP or CRM solution, you are relying on an external provider to bring that knowledge.

9:12
So you’re putting your trust in an external organisation, which is great because there’s so many reputable partners out there, but you’re putting all you trust in that organisation.

9:24
And sometimes even that organisation would need help from from your team and you might not have the knowledge or resources to provide that help.

9:33
So it is quite confusing starting this and especially defining your requirements etcetera, and you’re relying on someone else coming in and in and out of your organisation and trying to gather this so they can create these processes and everything.

9:49
So as a requirements review.

9:52
But the best practises that I’ve seen and a lot of organisations have now woken up to that is to hiring an internal project manager.

10:00
So this is someone who doesn’t work for the partner or the vendor that is implementing the system they work for as an end user.

10:08
And it could be depends on the duration of the project.

10:11
It could be someone for a few months for the duration of the project, or it could be for a few years if it’s a complex implementation.

10:17
So it could be freelance, so it could be permanent.

10:19
But this person, it works for you, they’re paid by you to work for you, represent your interest and they know about you need to hire someone experience who has done it before and who can guide you.

10:31
Maybe they can guide you with the selection of the solution, with the selection of the vendors.

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They’re knowledgeable.

10:37
You’re not doing it from a position of not knowing and worrying about making a mistake.

10:42
You’re hiring someone internally that has been there, has done that and brings the experience.

10:47
So this type of internal project managers also highly valuable for the partners you work with because they have someone that they can speak the same language they, they.

10:57
And suddenly the implementation is much more productive from day one because you have two knowledgeable sides talking to each other and thinking about defining what a success looks like in in common terms.

11:10
So that role is, is absolutely crucial for, for the success of of a project.

11:15
Otherwise you’re relying just on an external organisation to make the success for you.

11:20
So, so that’s step number one.

11:22
And and then clearly the implementation there, there are lots of, it could be quite complex etcetera.

11:28
So I’m not going to talk about it.

11:29
We don’t have enough time.

11:30
But at the end of the implementation also, that’s another common mistakes.

11:36
A lot of people think, oh, I’ve implemented the system, job done.

11:39
So I was like, yeah, it’s all great.

11:41
But the success of the implementation is not just about the system and the solution, it’s about people and the user adoption.

11:49
So make sure that you plan for that because you might have the best processes, the best system, but if your users have not been trained on using it, if they have not been involved in the process and they don’t know how to use the system, there will be so much resistance and they would not use it in the right way.

12:09
Or if they might not even use it at all.

12:11
So many implementations, they won’t even touch it.

12:14
So they just say, I have no idea.

12:15
It looks different from what I’m used to.

12:17
I used to do it this way.

12:18
You want me to do it that way, I won’t do it.

12:20
I won’t bother.

12:21
I’ll just carry on doing what I was doing.

12:24
It’s very, very important and I’m simplifying, but user adoption is a very, very important part of the success of the implementation.

12:31
So make sure that you plan for that.

12:34
And it might be the case that you might need to bring another organisation because implementation partners are often great at delivering the systems, but you need different skills to train someone.

12:45
So you might think about, OK, what skills do I need, what resource do I need in order to make this effective?

12:51
And I know Sandra, you’ve had first hand experience with with some of our clients in in that.

12:57
So, So what what are your thoughts on that as well?

13:01
Well, yeah, that’s been really interesting because for us on the training side, we’re kind of the people to whom the clients come when they have a system they’re not using.

13:10
So this is like we see essentially the results of bad user adoption practises, user adoption that was not done properly, not done with the right priorities in mind, or sometimes not done at all.

13:19
And then the clients come to us and they go, OK, well, I’ve invested all that money into my system.

13:25
People are not using it.

13:27
And there’s all these things I want to do with it, but I can’t do anything because I don’t know how.

13:31
I don’t want to call back the partner.

13:32
I’ve already put so much money into it.

13:34
So now it feels like a huge waste.

13:36
Can you help me?

13:37
So that’s kind of where where we are and that’s why that’s why I’ve been trying, we’ve been trying as a company to advocate for better user adoption practises because it’s actually so important to your clients happiness at the end.

13:50
And training is a big part of that.

13:51
It’s not the only part, but it’s a big part.

13:53
And one thing that’s important to understand when we’re in the middle of Microsoft technologies is we’re used to it, but it does take a bit of learning, especially Microsoft Dynamics.

14:04
It’s a really powerful solution, but you can’t just go like log into it and know how to use it.

14:10
There’s a lot of other CRMS you can do that.

14:12
You can kind of, you know, like fly through learning a few things, but dynamics, you have to be hot.

14:20
So yeah, definitely user adoption is really important and training needs to be a big part of it, which it’s not really at the moment.

14:28
And I would say also training with future proofing in mind because very often when training is done, we’re just training a first round of users and we’re not thinking about how are the new joiners going to be trained afterwards?

14:41
How is the user going to manage when they just want to do a tiny update or a tiny tweak to their customization system?

14:48
Like we’re creating a solution where they overly reliant on the partner or on learning partners to come back in every time there’s a new need.

14:57
And that creates a reluctance and a resistance.

15:00
And then people just don’t get trained and then people just don’t use the system.

15:04
So it’s it’s, it’s definitely, I completely agree with you, absolutely essential.

15:09
And there’s one thing I’m curious about.

15:11
So I know you’ve been very involved in supporting partner with the first thing you were talking about, getting that external consultant within the organisation to support with the communications, with the partners and with the implementation.

15:25
Is there a success story that should be able to share without breaking confidentiality, like examples of a scenario when you’ve accompanied an end user successfully with a model like this?

15:37
So again, I want to mention names, but they’ve been examples, a lot of examples of partners putting together requests for information.

15:51
So like requests for proposals, RFPs.

15:54
So that’s the customer comes together with a bunch of requirements and they go out with with this RFP and RFI and, and it’s done with something in mind that they wanted to, but without understanding really the journey and what their real needs are.

16:15
So as I said, that goes back to you don’t know what you don’t know.

16:19
So you’re asking the vendors and the providers to send you back information for what you think is important to you, but you’re missing the big picture.

16:29
So you’re blindly going after certain set of requirements that you’ve done.

16:34
And we’ve seen that they select someone to deliver what they want and that partner goes after nods and say, yeah, we’re taking every box and what you want.

16:43
And at the end, the end of the implementation is that, oops, we’ve missed out this and we’ve missed out that and we missed that.

16:49
And the partner you’ve selected or the vendor selected just can’t provide it because your requirements and scope was this and you had no visibility of what you really needed.

17:01
And you actually, sometimes your scope was bigger than what you needed.

17:04
So or, or it might have been, yeah, in a completely direction from where you needed to go.

17:09
So, so there’s a lot of that.

17:10
And the on the other spectrum, we’ve seen partners requesting the end users to have an internal resource or the end users, the customer proactively hiring and cleverly hiring this person ahead of time.

17:31
So, so when you have this person from day one that actually works really well, it saves you a lot of time, a lot of money as well, because you certainly focus on the things you want and and actually you gain speed because you’re doing things properly.

17:47
So ultimately it costs you less.

17:49
Yeah, you might need to pay that person, but this person will save you so much money from the implementation and the time and efficiency.

17:57
So, so it’s a no brainer when you think about it, but but very yeah, it’s I’ve seen this done successfully now because customers don’t know about this model, they often realise that later throughout the project and at that point this person comes in the recovery mode.

18:17
So to undo the things that were done and fix the mistakes.

18:22
And this is a much more expensive scenario.

18:25
So if you want to do it properly, do it before you even start implementation.

18:29
Find someone with experience and knowledge in in, Yeah, if you want to implement ERP system, find someone who’s done it before, who’s chosen and implemented the solutions that you want to implement, because that would be the really the the best and most effective way you can.

18:49
You can help yourself and the partner who is going to work with you to do the actual implementation.

18:54
That’s very true.

18:55
And it was also a really good point you made made about how just the scoping itself is enough like the initial building of the plan.

19:04
It’s hard as a business to know exactly how to do this.

19:07
How do you identify the real needs, how it’s it’s really valuable to actually have guidance from somebody who’s done it before at that stage of the of the process.

19:17
Exactly, exactly.

19:20
Now talking of user adoption and adopting new technologies, so we’ve talked a bit a little bit about how we’re seeing an acceleration in our space of updates and use.

19:33
And particularly something that’s happening right now is we’re getting a lot of new things in the AI area and in the low code area with Power Platform and solutions like this.

19:44
How do you see this impacting Microsoft end users?

19:49
And, you know, what can they do to stay on top of the technology progress and of what’s happening with their Microsoft products?

19:57
Oh, my God, This is, yeah, this is a massive area.

20:01
And this is coming to us at the speed of light, Sandra.

20:06
And we just can’t ignore this anymore.

20:09
And some just to put things into perspective.

20:12
So ChatGPT.

20:15
Had the fastest growth ever when you look at the time they got to 1,000,000 users.

20:22
Guess how long it took them to get to 1,000,000 users and I’ll give you examples so so Netflix got there in 3 1/2 years, Airbnb got there in 2 1/2 years Twitter it took them two years Facebook 10 months.

20:38
What do you think for ChatGPT?

20:40
I think I’ve heard it, it’s something crazy like a week or just five days, five days.

20:45
So it’s like it’s mad in five days they go to 1,000,000 users.

20:50
And I was like, we’re talking like different volume now, right now.

20:53
And So what is this telling us that we all need to get on board with AI quickly?

21:00
I mean, it’s already in our lives whether we like it or not.

21:02
And a lot of the things we do, a lot of the companies are using AI already.

21:05
A lot of the Microsoft solutions are using AI already, but we need to start understanding it and customers will need to start thinking about it because end users need to start thinking about it because their own customers will be asking questions about it.

21:22
They’ll be expecting it.

21:24
You know, employees would be expecting you to, to, to get on board.

21:28
So I mean, it’s it’s very hard to predict while we’ll be in a year, but it’s going to be much more advanced where it’s now at at this rate just looking.

21:40
Yeah, six months ago we thought they I was, I was like seeing so much in in, yeah, every month.

21:47
It’s just so much being released and done.

21:49
It’s just I’ve never seen such an innovation.

21:52
And years ago.

21:53
We’re excited about Internet.

21:55
This is much bigger than the Internet.

21:57
So, so.

21:59
So yeah, I think right now we just can’t ignore it.

22:03
You can’t just put your head in the sand and say, well, I’ll just see what happens because it’s developing so quickly.

22:10
If you’re not keeping up, you’ll have so much to catch on.

22:14
It’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s ridiculous.

22:17
And to be honest, yeah, it’s, I think everyone needs to be in an AI business.

22:24
Every business will have an AI element.

22:27
And the risk is if you’re not, you probably will be out of business because all your competitors will be.

22:32
So it’s not an option to say, oh, it’s not for me.

22:37
Whatever business you’re in, it’s most likely going to, to impact you and, and demand it from you to, to, to stay competitive.

22:43
So otherwise you’re not going to be productive, you’re not going to be efficient.

22:48
You’ll be people, you’ll be like customers will be living in again.

22:51
You can’t sustain your business unless you start thinking about it.

22:54
So.

22:55
So yeah, I think it needs to be on top of mind for everyone.

22:59
Unfortunately, it’s not.

23:01
It’s not too good to have.

23:02
It’s a must have.

23:03
Now.

23:05
That’s true.

23:05
And I mean, it’s a really powerful tool if you think about it.

23:08
I know there’s a lot of reluctance like this kind of, yes, a number of companies that just don’t really know how, don’t really want to start looking into this, but there’s been good results in terms of productivity improvement, just engagement because it’s actually fun.

23:24
Once you get started to to use AI for certain things, see what it comes back with, there’s, there’s a good reward for your investment, I feel in this particular technology.

23:34
Absolutely.

23:35
And then there are lots of ways to learn about the like free resources, etcetera, and for you to try as well.

23:41
Just get your hands dirty, play with it.

23:43
It’s like, what’s what’s the worst that can happen?

23:45
So yeah, very true.

23:48
Now there’s one thing though, where I’d love your insights.

23:51
Yeah, obviously, as you said, this is accelerating really quickly, right, AI, there’s a new copilot coming out all the time, new updates, new features, new capabilities.

24:01
It’s really overwhelming.

24:03
And even the people in our space like the consultants who are head down into it, they are struggling to keep up.

24:09
They are.

24:10
It’s too fast for them Even so, what would be your advice to an end user company whose main focus is not IT and it’s not AI when we’re already struggling?

24:21
What would you say they should do in order to make the most of what’s happening with AI?

24:26
Yeah, I mean, I completely understand it.

24:29
It’s, it’s normal to be scared of the unknown.

24:31
And it’s.

24:32
Yeah.

24:32
With AI, it’s like such a huge beast that is like, where where do you tackle it?

24:37
And it’s like, well, it’s so, so maybe define first like what does it mean for you?

24:45
And, and maybe look at the areas in your business where you are least productive.

24:52
So are there any areas?

24:54
Because every business has areas where you’re not productive and efficient.

24:59
And I bet you there are ways AI can help.

25:02
So I wouldn’t start doing research for AI, for everything AI because you’ll get lost.

25:08
And it’s like, yeah, you started exploring this and one thing leads to another and another and another.

25:12
And it’s just like you wasted days and months just researching it.

25:17
But just be practical.

25:19
So for your business, where do you want to improve productivity and efficiency?

25:24
And where are you wasting time?

25:27
Where are you wasting resources right now?

25:29
So is there anything that can help you?

25:31
And then go and maybe ask Chad, what is the best that we can help you, ask AI to help you find the answer.

25:41
And I know that I mean, there is a risk.

25:44
I mean, some jobs might be at risk because maybe you don’t need certain jobs anymore, if it could be automated, etcetera.

25:52
But it’s it’s also an opportunity because maybe you can refocus people to develop more strategic roles and to focus on doing more strategic work or more creative work and something that would add even more value so than some things that AI can’t do.

26:11
Get AI to do the mundane repeatable jobs that you don’t need human intelligence, but just focus your people on something that they they enjoy and that they can bring more value than anyone else.

26:25
That’s a really good back then.

26:27
I was thinking about that recently that indeed.

26:30
Yeah, that’s a way for essentially increasing your workforce without increasing your workforce.

26:36
Suddenly you’re freeing up time from people’s day-to-day jobs, repetitive tasks, time consuming tasks, or accelerating the way they work.

26:45
And suddenly they can focus on other things.

26:47
They can be happier because they’re doing things that are much more creative and much more interesting.

26:53
They can start new projects, they can get help in areas where they would be stuck.

26:57
So it’s actually, if you look at this as an opportunity, suddenly it’s a very empowering tool.

27:02
And that’s actually the way I got started with it.

27:05
I just started asking myself whenever I had a task I didn’t really want to do or a task that I felt was going to take me ages, how can AI help me?

27:14
And as a business leader, I think that’s something you can do to start AI adoption in your business.

27:18
I mean, you will.

27:19
And I were a big part of us starting using is because you started using it yourself.

27:23
You told us about how you were using it.

27:25
And that was an inspiration for me to try.

27:28
And then you just tell myself, OK, so I don’t, I really don’t want to be writing five social media posts today.

27:34
How can AI make this faster?

27:35
And I would never actually write the entire post with AI because I feel that’s not where it’s good.

27:40
But it helps generate ideas, it helps to generate a structure.

27:43
And then you have saved yourself at least half the time it would have taken if AI wasn’t there at all.

27:50
Absolutely.

27:51
And I love how people can be creative with AI and do things that you would have never thought that it was technology for.

27:58
And yeah, so it’s, it’s interesting once you get hooked into that, you see more and more opportunities of, of using it and leveraging for for day-to-day stuff as well.

28:09
So it’s not just strategic big areas, but just small things.

28:14
What could save you time and make you more productive?

28:18
Absolutely.

28:18
So you sound like you’re more on the excited side when it comes to it to that, right?

28:22
Some people are excited, some people are apprehensive.

28:27
From your point of view, what are like kind of the main pros, the main risks that we need to pay attention to and like, how would you advise companies when it comes to managing the risks around AI?

28:40
So again, it needs to be.

28:43
So control is very important.

28:45
So in terms of control of your data and where things sit and what people are using.

28:52
So therefore, actually using Microsoft Copilot is a really safe bet because if you’re just using open AI, your data could be shared with your competitors and all the information could be shared with your competitors.

29:08
So I think it’s, it’s, it’s very important.

29:13
Other risks are in terms of as, as individual roles, etcetera.

29:18
A lot of people are worried and they, we work in the tech space where some developers are saying, am I going to be redundant?

29:24
If, if AI can do my coding?

29:26
So what am I here for?

29:29
But there are a lot of other ways we can start thinking and re skilling.

29:33
So thinking of what type of skills you need in order to, to stay relevant.

29:38
And so it’s all about relevant, yeah.

29:40
How can you remain relevant in the age of AI and thinking, OK, I might be losing some of the the jobs I’m getting and losing some of the things I’ve been doing comfortably, but what could I learn, what could I gain that would give me a differentiation and advantage?

29:59
And maybe you build a new skill around AI and using AI and guiding other people around effective ways of using it.

30:07
So, so yeah, I think there, there’s definitely risks that need to be managed, but there, there are more opportunities.

30:16
So it’s, it’s, it’s there to, to, to make us grow faster and hopefully have more time to do the things we enjoy and yeah, and not spend time on mundane tasks and duplicate things.

30:32
And yeah, so, so for me, I think it’s a, it’s a very positive thing.

30:39
So I’ve got a friend who he’s, when he tends to be worried about things naturally rather than excited.

30:45
And one things he told me about AI is he’s going to make people so lazy.

30:51
We’re gonna get to a generation of people who can’t think for themselves and they’re just gonna use AI for everything.

30:57
And we’re not gonna get any new creativity developing because AI is gonna be used as a what would you say to somebody who says something like this to you?

31:07
What would be your response?

31:08
I mean, I, I see the point.

31:10
So, so, yeah, there was experiment they gave, they actually in the, in the school in the UK, they took away the, the smartphones from the kids for a week and let them live like that.

31:21
And many of them just couldn’t even go to school because they didn’t have a lot.

31:25
They, they’ve never really had the opportunity to, to think about how to go to school, how to take a train without.

31:31
And so, so yes, there’s a risk for that.

31:33
So, but I think there’s also an opportunity for being creative because I think some of the best innovation comes and, and best ideas comes when people are relaxed and are lazy.

31:51
So, and then again, I’ll give another example with kids.

31:56
So kids are most, yeah, creative when they don’t know what to do and they’re not told what to do and they’re bored when they’re lazy.

32:04
And I think that might spark more different type of innovation among us as a society because.

32:14
And maybe we’ll have more fun because we’re all complaining how we’re.

32:17
So in the rest society, we never have time.

32:19
We’re always like back-to-back, so busy doing things.

32:21
And, well, maybe we do less and live more and maybe we have more fun and enjoy things.

32:26
So I think it’s being lazy is a good thing.

32:28
I’d love to be more lazy.

32:30
That’s a nice thing to hear from your boss.

32:32
Thank you.

32:33
I know.

32:33
Yeah, let’s be lazy.

32:38
Let’s add this to our values.

32:39
Yeah, we want to be lazy.

32:41
We want our customers to be lazy.

32:45
That’s a very good perspective.

32:47
But but another thing I think is also, it’s like any tool and technology, it’s about how we choose to use it.

32:53
And ultimately we can decide that AI is going to make us lazy or we can decide, like you say, that is going to make us more creative.

33:00
It’s going to make us think differently and it’s going to bring you up.

33:04
And it’s about mindset actually.

33:05
And maybe that’s the direction.

33:07
It’s about cultivating mindsets towards AI that will help us be empowered by it rather than become completely dependent on it and crippled without it.

33:17
Absolutely.

33:18
And just being curious.

33:19
So curious mindset, not mindset driven by fear always.

33:23
Like I need to react to this big thing, I’m scared of it or whatever.

33:27
Just be curious about it.

33:29
How how can you make it late?

33:30
How can it make you lazier?

33:32
Yeah.

33:38
So now we’re almost to the end of the episodes and there’s one last question, and I will give a little bit of context for our listeners.

33:48
At our company, we have a habit of celebrating failure.

33:53
Many people are scared of failure, like this is a bad, bad word.

33:57
People are terrified, but what we do instead as a company is we celebrate it because when you think about it, when you fail, first of all, it means you’ve tried something.

34:07
It means you’ve eliminated an option that did not work and so you can move on to another one that might.

34:13
It means you were daring, it means you experimented and probably it means you’ve learnt from it, right?

34:19
So this is something as a company that we value and we’ve seen brings a lot of growth actually, people for people to be willing to try things, fail and try again and for it not to be a stigmatised thing, but rather valued as an experiment.

34:33
So now we’re going to be asking this question to every single one of our guests to talk a little bit about failure.

34:41
And let’s start with you, Elena.

34:44
What was your last failure, either in your professional life or your personal life, You can choose.

34:51
And how did you grow from it?

34:53
What did it bring you?

34:56
So you know, I I love the idea of failure, but I want to set things straight.

35:02
We do not promote failure to customers.

35:04
We know we want successful implementations and successful engagements.

35:11
So this is slightly different angles and just yeah.

35:16
And it probably would make sense.

35:18
So like when I share like a bit of a background about it.

35:20
So I used to hate failure and fear it.

35:25
Then the whole idea of failure was just.

35:27
So I just want to ignore it because we live in a society where we strive for success.

35:32
You want success every day and everything you do.

35:34
And I, I totally get this, but I just over the many years I realised, do I learn from success?

35:42
I actually don’t and most people don’t.

35:44
So when you think about it, you achieve something and then there’s probably a moment of yay, I’ve done it.

35:51
And then you move on.

35:52
And it’s like you’ve forgotten 5 minutes later, the big or the little success you’ve had and you move on and you haven’t learned anything.

35:59
And it’s like, yeah, I’ve done it stick in a box.

36:02
And it’s like you move on.

36:03
But the real learning comes from things that you haven’t done well or things you screwed up a little bit and or in a big way.

36:13
And this is where the big transformation comes.

36:16
And, and I said, I’m not promoting failure, but what I’m saying is don’t fear failure and actually face the failure before it happens or when it happens and, and deal with it in an agile way.

36:28
So that’s very different.

36:29
So, and again, we’re not saying go for failure, but don’t be afraid of it.

36:34
And it’s just same as like when I was starting, I was, I really wanted to start the business even with 95% of businesses failed with like within few years.

36:45
But I was prepared to to start something.

36:48
I really wanted to with the yeah, with the clear understanding that there might be failure, but it’s the bravery behind it.

36:55
And so, so facing the the risk and just dealing with that.

37:00
And, and that’s why I don’t think if you’re afraid of failure, you will ignore the risk and then you have higher chances of failing.

37:08
But if you are, if you’re staring at the failure with an open eyes and, and not being afraid of it, you’re much more likely to succeed.

37:17
So, so that’s kind of the logic behind and from.

37:20
So when I embraced this philosophy early on when, like when we started the business and I, we realised that one of the big frustration as a leader we had, and it’s like a newer part of the team and you were part of all of these discussions is we, we were chasing like our vision in a very rigid way.

37:41
This was the plan, this was the vision, this is what we wanted to achieve.

37:45
And we were just going after it blindly and there was, and I think we had the blind spot for even bigger opportunities that was were right there next to us.

37:55
And the customers were telling us about the opportunities and the things that they wanted.

37:59
We were like, no, no, no, this is not in our plan.

38:01
So this is what we wanted to do and this is what our market research did for us.

38:06
And this is like what you want, but actually the customers were telling us different.

38:10
And it was just the the failure to see what was obvious, but just blindly pursuing what we really set ourselves.

38:22
And I think the fact that we took a step back and said, OK, so we’re not growing to the extent we wanted to.

38:30
We’re not adding as much value as we really wanted to add to the customers.

38:35
If we’re not doing that, we’re failing.

38:37
So what do we need to do differently?

38:39
And it was, yeah, it was just to, to remove the blinders and, and look at the opportunities that were staring at us.

38:46
And it’s like our customers were not just looking at the time we were providing resources and, and people the project, but then we, our customers were asking, well, what about skills we want to upscale, etcetera.

38:57
And then it’s, it’s all about and now we, we embrace this and, and it was just because we were able to, to realise we weren’t addressing it properly.

39:09
And we, we dealt with the failure to see by removing our blinders and, and actually seeing the opportunity what was there in front of us.

39:19
So I think it’s, it’s very important to be humble and to say, OK, I maybe I’m, I’m not doing it right and to share vulnerability and to, to say, OK, maybe there’s something there’s a risk here I’m not seeing and maybe I need to be open about it and discussing it and sharing it.

39:41
And that’s the only way we can first of all, address it if it’s happening, but also avoid it if, if it hasn’t happened.

39:49
So, so that’s kind of my personal example.

39:52
And and it’s not so much personal because you want part of that journey is Andrew, it’s like, what would you say about it?

39:59
Cuz yeah, we lived through this together.

40:02
It’s a good example.

40:03
And that definitely was an interesting period.

40:07
And I think it unlocked a lot of things for us as a company when we started to be willing to look at.

40:14
Well, to consider maybe we’re doing this thing wrong and to consider, OK, maybe this initial model we had in mind and that we loved so much, that’s actually not a success.

40:24
That’s not the success we wanted.

40:25
And there’s a different way.

40:26
Now we can take all that experience and help our customers better.

40:30
So and then we expanded on that and we grew.

40:34
And so, and I guess that’s kind of trying to say at the beginning, maybe a bit of an exaggerated worry about failure that actually, obviously we don’t promote things like project failure, but it’s more with the willingness of trying things even if you’re not sure that it’s going to work out.

40:50
And yeah, except that if you fail, you’ll do something else.

40:53
You’ll find a solution.

40:54
You’ll find the right way to to still get to the results you want.

40:58
Or maybe you’ll realise what you wanted was the wrong thing and you’ll shift.

41:01
And it’s kind of a mental agility that you build over time.

41:05
So I feel like that’s that has helped us out a lot and it’s been great on an individual level as well to be getting into that kind of habit.

41:12
That failure is not so bad because for me, I was race thinking, race thinking.

41:17
Failure is the worst thing that can happen to you.

41:19
It’s really liberated to think actually, no, I can try this thing even if I’m not sure that it’s going to work.

41:26
Yeah.

41:26
And especially in our world of technology and innovation, you innovation is sparked by try trial and failure.

41:33
So you can’t just, yeah, expect success.

41:37
And every time, I mean, but big success has come after a lot of failures.

41:41
So again, what do you learn from these failures and how do you build on that?

41:45
And then how do you implement this?

41:47
And then it’s all about the learning.

41:50
Absolutely.

41:52
Well, that is all we have time for for today.

41:55
So thank you so much, Elena, for your your insights and your energy.

41:59
It was really interesting to get the time and space to ask you those deeper questions that, yeah, we don’t really talk about much.

42:09
And a big thank you to everybody who’s been listening to us.

42:14
If you enjoyed this episode, please follow our channel.

42:19
And we’re looking forward to seeing you again for the next episode.